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An Eruv is

ritual halakhic enclosure made for the purpose of allowing activities which are normally prohibited on Shabbat (due to the prohibition of hotzaah mereshut lereshut), specifically: carrying objects from a private domain to a semi-public domain (carmelit), and transporting objects four cubits or more within a semi-public domain. The enclosure is made within some Jewish communities, especially Orthodox Jewish communities.

I'm asking here because an Eruv seems against the spirit of OpenStreetMaps in my neighborhood there is a gigantic area called "Meyerland Minyan Eruv". You can read more about it on their webpage,

* http://www.meyerlandminyan.org/eruv.html

Note, on that webpage,

An entire neighborhood that is walled in would be considered enclosed for these purposes, but in most modern cities and towns that is not feasible, nor is it necessary. In fact, the modern city eruv will make use of existing telephone poles (with their wires going from the top of one pole to the next), fencing, and existing walls, for example, to allow the enclosed area to be considered “private.”

This is ONLY an argument against the un-walled version.

I'll cite the same logic in Does parcel data belong in OSM? ,

But many mappers believe that the parcel boundaries specifically do not belong in OSM. The core reasons for this position are discussed in subsequent sections. But the general idea is that OSM is not a general-purpose geo data repository. It is a system for crowd-sourcing a map. Also, parcel boundaries and some related data (e.g., zoning) are an administrative construct managed by a government authority. Accordingly, they change frequently in ways that can't be readily observed on the ground. Also, if a mapper edits the parcel data in a way that conflicts with the authoritative source, the conflict must be reconciled somehow, which would be difficult and maybe impossible.

All of that applies to an Eruv.

  1. Most people don't know they live in one, if they do.
  2. The authoritative source of one would require OSM be in direct communication with the clergy (as compared to the civil courthouse).
  3. They're a purely administrative construct.

A few things to consider that make it worse in my opinion,

  1. It's effectively a service-area. I've never seen commercial entities granted this ability? Is OSM the right place to find out if you're in an T-Mobile service area?
  2. We'd be subjecting ourselves to all kinds of arbitrary religious jurisprudence: imagine finding your house in an area that tells you what Mormon and Jehova Witness Elders have the ability to bind their adherents in clerical arbitration. What about the territory of the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston, do we want a polygon covering Houston and Galveston for that: what would our position be if the Pope and Cardinal DiNardo disagree on that?
  3. There is a status on an Eruv: they can be up or down. For example, if one of the arbitrary chosen barriers is a light post, and that light post is replaced the Eruv is status=down until it's remedied, inspected, and certified to be back up. There are Facebook groups and pages that track this. For example, https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid02RVVnXmsTQ5LFHZATQbEvrFoTxaQVPn16HxjPyAQxq1iYMmm1X1ss7Fg5FqSsHPJel&id=52052821389 This is unique, as we're talking about an area which may not just change, but may be entirely invalid until recertified.
  4. This is contentious and exclusive: why should anyone have an Eruv or another religious administrative district that has no binding power covering their house, neighborhood, and parks?
  5. This will force us to establish a religion, or an acceptable set of religions: what will we do when the Church of Satan sends an emissary to a local Jewish temple, and desecrates the ground with a verbal curse? Will that range of their desecration be a welcomed addition to OSM. Because boundary=religious welcomes this kind of trolling.

Proposal: Deletion

There are four of these on OSM,

  1. Religious Meyerland Minyan Eruv, Houston, Harris County, Texas, 77096, United States
  2. Eruv Chigwell and Hainault Eruv, London Borough of Redbridge, London, Essex, Greater London, England, United Kingdom
  3. Religious United Orthodox Synagogues Eruv, Westwood Park, Houston, Harris County, Texas, United States
  4. Religious Young Israel of Houston - Eruv excluded areas, Houston, Harris County, Texas, United States

Second Proposal

I can't see an area with boundary=religious following the spirit of the site. If there is no physical boundary it doesn't belong here. Perhaps all these should all be removed.

asked 22 Aug '22, 03:09

Evan%20Carroll's gravatar image

Evan Carroll
43141517
accept rate: 0%

edited 23 Aug '22, 05:24

You mention boundary=religious, but not boundary=religious_administration which might be a better fit, I'm not sure. This has more than 7000 uses, concentrated in Poland, and is documented mainly on the Polish language wiki. An even more localised possible analogy is boundary=rc_parish, for Roman Catholic Parish, used over 200 times in Ireland.

(23 Aug '22, 20:07) alan_gr

This is a valid concern but you have chosen the wrong venue for finding a solution. This Q&A site is for finding the "one best answer" to something, not for nuanced discussions of complex issues. Please head over to the tagging mailing list (lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging) to resolve this issue.

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answered 22 Aug '22, 09:16

Frederik%20Ramm's gravatar image

Frederik Ramm ♦
82.5k927201273
accept rate: 23%

Had no idea, seemed like this was a good place to ask if we could delete something. I'll take it there.

(22 Aug '22, 17:59) Evan Carroll

At least one of the London eruvs has some clearly mappable infrastructure, as a planning application was made to install it. However, I doubt if the entire boundaries meet practical repeatable observable criteria that underpins OSM (note that although not marked on the ground, ordinary admin boundaries often have decent enough observable clues as to their extent).

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answered 22 Aug '22, 10:31

SK53's gravatar image

SK53 ♦
28.1k48268433
accept rate: 22%

If one of these is using otherwise mappable infrastructure and is signposted somewhere it seems like it could be verifiable enough. Things like fences walls and power lines (not sure about phone) all get mapped so if they are all scooped up into a religious boundary or multipolygons based on public signs?

(22 Aug '22, 14:09) InsertUser

@InsertUser: I think mostly the specific infrastructure is designed to be as unobtrusive as possible. It's also prone to break in which case it behaves like OSM coastlines & the eruv is flooded and unusable.

(23 Aug '22, 10:15) SK53 ♦

Just a casual comment, but I live within a NW London Eruv and am aware that I do, living in a area with a large Jewish population. It's not mapped on OSM though.

As mapping information, personally I would find it fairly interesting, if non essential. I'm not aware of other religions with similar constructs, so it's not as if OSM would end up being swamped with religious boundaries

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answered 24 Aug '22, 14:37

Mikey%20Co's gravatar image

Mikey Co
1314412
accept rate: 0%

Berrely has mapped one of the eruvs in LB Camden, South Hampstead, including tracking down the infrastructure, so it looks as though it can be done. See https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2022-August/065205.html

(24 Aug '22, 21:31) SK53 ♦

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question asked: 22 Aug '22, 03:09

question was seen: 963 times

last updated: 24 Aug '22, 21:31

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