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Hi there, I have been experimenting with a Latin map via Maptiler here. The link shows st Albans - Latin name from Wikidata would be "Fanum Sancti Albani" However some of the Latin names are not appearing - I am thinking this could be due to name length versus space allocated. I am not familiar with how this works and what might impact rendering of names so any pointers would be gratefully recieved. |
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I suspect this depends on which objects are being used to display names at which zoom level (and if the object in question has a wikidata tag or not). You would need to talk to maptiler about this in any case. General note: at least some of the names seem to be pulled from wikidata which in turn pulls the names from the latin wikipedia, which while maybe a fun project, is hardly a legit source of actual latin names (there are a couple of glaringly obvious nonsense names staring at you on that map). With other words classical GIGO. 1 If the object does not have a Wikidata name, or name:la tag, then English would be displayed, so that is not the problem 2 What seems to be happening is that the town names are not appearing: eg, also Wolverhampton, Worcester, etc. I understand that Maptiler will need to resolve this, but I thought there may be some issues with when and where OSM defines the spaces for names to display etc, or that there may be guidance about how this is done, or else, some way to ascertain that the spatial characteristcs for displaying names cannot be a problem. On the names themselves, it is unfortunate that Wikidata don't ask for source information for verifiability etc on the data record itself. But the "nonsense names" there are just medieval latin usages - "Hatfeldia" and "Langeleia Regis" are typical scribal renderings. If these derive from la.wikipedia.org then they are very conscientious about finding prior art. You'll find these examples via Google easily enough.
(06 Jan '21, 13:23)
Jim Killock
Here is la.wikipedia's names policy for reference, in English, so you can hopefully see that it is thoughtful and conscientious. https://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicipaedia:De_nominibus_propriis/en
(06 Jan '21, 18:21)
Jim Killock
"unless it uses ordinary or translatable words in its own language, in which case we translate them" - that pretty much contradicts https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Avoid_transliteration, surely? Points 2-6 look very much not the way that OSM does things.
(06 Jan '21, 20:07)
Richard ♦
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Well, this isn't a discussion about including Wikidata content within OSM, so I am not sure that matters (although the differences may be smaller than you imagine - AIUI the point is that words like "Tower of" or "X Mountain" etc can be translated under la.wikipedia policy, but not things like "Newfarm", so rare in practice relating to place names). My point was that the Latin names they have recorded are not, as remarked, nonsense.
(07 Jan '21, 00:06)
Jim Killock
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Redditch is a "Newfarm" case though, isn't it? https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1875340
(07 Jan '21, 10:38)
Richard ♦
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Hi @richard No, in fact "Rubeum Fossatum" is a medieval scribal name for Redditch. A quick search on Google for this (in the ablative case) shows a bunch of mentions. I believe this appears in the written records before "Red ditch" FWIW. https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=rubeo+fossato To be clear I won't be adding any more Latin names directly however, it clearly isn't what OSM wants so is easier to confine this to la.wikipedia and Wikidata.
(07 Jan '21, 11:09)
Jim Killock
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To be fair, the first half of Simon's answer is entirely correct, and the second half of the answer is entirely unrelated to the question that you're asking, if the purpose of the map is "to show latin names for places as used by the latin Wikipedia and Wikidata no matter how valid or otherwise that might be". Do you have the option of changing the map style in any way so that fewer names are shown, or more zoom levels, so that the length of a name isn't an issue with regard to displaying it?
(07 Jan '21, 11:11)
SomeoneElse ♦
Thanks for bringing this back to point @someoneElse, I don't know if there are options for names shown (I hadn't found any) but I will ask them. What tho do you mean by Zoom levels? I assumed this is just how close to maximum scale but perhaps it is something else. In any case, the names consistently do not appear. Are there any options for checking other multilingual maps based on OSM data and typical map styles for similar problems, eg Wales or England in CY, that don't depend on this particular product?
(07 Jan '21, 11:16)
Jim Killock
I can think of a couple of EN/CY examples - https://openstreetmap.cymru/ shows CY names (and no English ones); https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=8&lat=52.43&lon=-3.393 shows Welsh names rather than English ones in majority and near-majority Welsh-speaking areas. That last one supports zoom levels up to 24, where name clashes aren't an issue. Both source names only from OSM, I believe.
(07 Jan '21, 11:25)
SomeoneElse ♦
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(and I always thought that it was Verulamium)
@SomeoneElse Yes, that is right, but from the Roman period. The name that has been added to Wikidata is the medieval Latin name meaning "Shrine of St Alban". But both are long which is what is worrying me might be upsetting display.